Podcast
Join Viktor, a proud nerd and seasoned entrepreneur, whose academic journey at Santa Clara University in Silicon Valley sparked a career marked by innovation and foresight. From his college days, Viktor embarked on an entrepreneurial path, beginning with YippieMove, a groundbreaking email migration service, and continuing with a series of bootstrapped ventures.
Links
Follow Me
Follow Me
Join Viktor, a proud nerd and seasoned entrepreneur, whose academic journey at Santa Clara University in Silicon Valley sparked a career marked by innovation and foresight. From his college days, Viktor embarked on an entrepreneurial path, beginning with YippieMove, a groundbreaking email migration service, and continuing with a series of bootstrapped ventures.
The Quiet Power of Digital Minimalism with Patrick Walker
Play On
21 OCT • 2025
0 mins
Share:
Is tech making us smarter—or just more distracted? In this episode of Nerding Out with Viktor, I sit down with Patrick Walker, former YouTube and Facebook executive turned conscious tech founder, to explore how we got here and what it takes to break free from the default.
Patrick’s journey spans the early days of digital media, from working as a TV producer in Japan to navigating YouTube’s copyright wars and platform expansion across global markets. At Facebook, he witnessed firsthand the ethical friction behind live video, algorithm design, and the psychological toll of attention-based products, especially on younger users.
The conversation dives into the pivotal moments that shaped Patrick’s perspective on technology’s impact. He reflects on his career spent scaling platforms like YouTube globally, helping define the infrastructure that powers modern video consumption, and eventually making the difficult decision to leave Big Tech behind.
That turning point led to Uptime, a micro-learning app designed to fight passive consumption and offer a smarter way to engage with content. Patrick unpacks the product thinking behind building for digital wellness, explaining how it requires more than just good UX—it demands restraint, values, and long-term perspective in an industry optimized for the opposite.
Whether you’re building tech, raising kids around screens, or just trying to regain your focus, this episode offers a practical look at how to design and live with more clarity in an attention-driven world.
Transcript
Show/Hide Transcript
Yeah, I mean, I've tried different things and I spent like a good year going deep and actually working and you know, getting some certifications in digital well being, which I felt was really interesting.
A lot of it is common sense, but I think it's nice that we have these sorts of structures or guidance, particularly for people that are early on in the process.
You know, things like just not having your phone visible if you're doing something else.
That's a very basic one, but just it's present, is, is already taking your attention and drawing you toward it.
Welcome back to Nerding Out With Viktor.
Today I'm joined by Patrick Walker.
Welcome to the show, Patrick.
Great to be here.
Great to see you again.
Likewise.
Yeah.
So you're a mutual friend of some of my friends and we got to know each other a few years ago and start to, we kind of started talking about the whole mental wellness in the tech world, which I think both of us are passionate about, like trying to get around, get our heads around really.
Right.
But before we dive in, because that's going to be a topic of today's discussion largely around digital minimalism, well being and mental health, in particular around young people on the Internet today.
But before we dive into that for the viewers and the listeners, Patrick, would you mind giving kind of an introduction to yourself so people know like the vantage point you're coming from in this conversation?
Okay, great.
Yeah, it's been quite a, quite a journey actually.
My, my career, it's one that being young, I could never anticipate it because I'd ended up doing a lot of things industries and businesses that didn't exist when I was born.
I suppose you could summarize it by saying I've been working sort of consistently to sort of crossroads of media storytelling and then technology as an enabler.
And that's taken many forms as technology has changed.
You know, the consistent thread has really been about, you know, helping tell great stories or telling them myself or working in the media space, but then leveraging all these different tools to help amplify that distribution, amplify the voice, reduce the cost and improve the distribution.
And I began my career actually as a, as a TV producer in Japan of all places, making children's television about the world in Japanese for Japanese kids, which was a funny departure.
After university, I ended up going to Japan to learn the language and learn martial arts and travel around.
I just ended up staying and focused on that.
That led to me, you Know, getting much more adept at Japanese and understanding the culture, not just Japan, but Asia.
And the BBC hired me to set up and run their, the Tokyo bureau with some of their correspondents where I started getting involved more in like hardcore news.
And really it was at that time and even before it, nhk, where the storytelling was one thing, but there was always new technologies that made that storytelling more interesting, of higher quality.
When I was at nhk, I was involved in the first, the launch of high definition television, which was a big thing.
16 by 9, believe it or not, wasn't always there.
It was 4, 4x3 and people were had wide screen televisions and cameras and you know, it was chaos because people were like fighting, you know, this new technology.
They wanted to stick with the four by three.
And then at BBC it was about using, you know, laptop editing and you know, satellite dishes that didn't cost thousands of pounds and require three people.
You could do it from a small piece of equipment you could sort of set up on a precarious roof in a conflict zone and then there'd be, you know, laptop editing and being able to shoot and use more digital equipment.
A lot of it was a euphemism for cost cutting, where they would expect you as a producer.
And I was, I ended up being the bureau chief in Southeast Asia to not just, you know, organize the shoots and coordinate all of the programming out of the region, but you know, I'd also have to be capable of reporting and shooting from time to time and editing and doing radio.
So that was really fun.
Always learning new technology to help get more stories across.
And there was always this big gap between those who could create the stories and those who couldn't.
And they were generally well financed, working for broadcasters.
But equipment started getting cheaper, the distribution means started to get better.
And there was a sort of breakthrough.
And I really realized this probably in the late 90s.
I'm 58 by the way, so I've been around for a while where people were able to use small digital cameras and shoot for themselves.
And so that's when we started using equivalent UGC at the BBC.
You know, we would collect tapes from people who happen to be around at some sort of crisis.
And then we would integrate that into our programming.
But we literally had to wait at an airport, say, did you get any footage of that, you know, riot or whatever it was?
And we would then go back and edit it on some machine and go to a satellite dish and spend thousands of dollars to send it back to London.
But digital Technology started to come into it and I decided in 2000, actually at the dawn of the, well, right in the middle of the dot com boom, to move back to London.
Like you.
I had two, well, one small child, another one on the way.
And I really started to think more about something longer term that was also more aligned with, you know, being a young father, raising a family and running around to conflict zones and war zones and getting shot at.
Something my wife objected to at the time.
Yeah.
So I moved to London and I ended up getting involved in what was considered the first short form video network in the world.
There was no distribution really.
There was like WAP and the beginnings of broadband.
But what we started to do was get young people who are really good at using digital technology to make short form videos about the world, about music, about the sports world and all the sort of content that we put on at whatever length made sense.
And that was really revolutionary in 2000.
2001 was like TV programming was, you know, it was 30 minutes or it was an hour.
Yeah, you had your blocks, right?
Yeah.
This video is just five minutes and anyone can produce this.
But we had really interesting challenges to, you know, make this successful because you just didn't have the distribution.
But the ideas were starting to come through.
We had young talent coming through, people who were editing in Flash, making Flash videos and games and that was really exciting.
So I was, I understood the language of digital media priority thanks to this, which then led me to working for a company called RealNetworks which founded streaming video.
It's based in Seattle, where I'm from.
And I was the international lead.
And the way we use technology then was live streaming and even subscription based live streaming so you could watch Major League Baseball anywhere in the world or UEFA Champions League anywhere in the world, or Big Brother.
So this really became a moment of professional content licensing, working with technologies to make streaming the only way in most cases you could get access to certain content in certain markets when it would be geo blocked or the broadcast window wouldn't extend there.
From there I got hired by Google.
They were looking to develop a video strategy internationally.
They had Google video in America.
YouTube had just sort of come on the scene and within six months I was with a bunch of people saying, hey, Google Video sucks, we should really just go buy YouTube.
And so we spent the next couple months doing the due diligence and looked at a couple other options like dailymotion.
It was an obvious choice.
And once the acquisition was done, I went from being the international video guy for Google to the first international YouTube employee and that was in 2006.
So that was, that was fascinating.
We look now 20 years past that point.
YouTube just turned 20 and it's just become almost like old media.
It's just there, it's prevalent, it's part of everybody's, you know, daily life.
But at the time it was not clear in any way whatsoever that it would survive.
We had billion dollar lawsuits that I was dragged through myself.
I had even a criminal suit against me in Germany for copyright, not for me, but because YouTube had held content that some German artists had objected to.
We had no monetization for years.
There were certain markets that were blocking us and even raiding our offices in countries like Turkey and Thailand.
But now looking back, it's quite fascinating to see how much that YouTube as a platform for self expression.
This thing that I talked about early in my career is like technology is getting cheaper, distribution is getting better, democratization of media.
YouTube really was this point at which things really shifted.
I think particularly with the iPhone coming out.
To be able to shoot and even cut and then distribute directly to the world from your phone was revolutionary.
And then consume that on your phone, revolutionary.
And that just began.
I think the last sort of 20 something years has really just been about riding that wave of more technologies, better monetization opportunities, different forms of storytelling, and then guiding and building different teams within big tech at YouTube and then later at Facebook and Instagram and then sort of arcing after many years in that space, thinking a lot more about conscious tech and that really is about a five or six years ago.
I started thinking around 2018, 19 when I was at Facebook that technology was getting just a little bit too good, a little bit too invasive.
There was data issues, there were, you know, issues around young women and young men having mental health issues and self harm.
Inspired by people comparing themselves to what they're seeing, digital addiction.
I started spending time looking into the center for Humane Technology and former Google and tech executives who basically start to reveal these sort of ledger of harms that were coming from overuse of technology and designing technology to really entrap you like fast food is designed to do.
It's just so good, you can't help but want to have another tube of Pringles or whatever, even though you know it's not good for you.
And digital media started to take on a lot of these characteristics.
So I ended up making a conscious choice in 2019 not to be part of that problem, not That I had an issue overall with the existence of these platforms.
It was just, I personally didn't want to be an apologist.
I wanted to kind of work on a focused effort to spend my time and energy on, I would say, the lighter, more conscious and thoughtful side of that industry.
And so I really committed myself to conscious tech and content that was more uplifting.
If you are going to spend time in these spaces, which everyone is generally going to do, at least let's help fill them with things that help you get smarter instead of dumber.
Let's find ways to create like anti mindless scrolling effort to bring content to the masses that is easy to consume but also fun and elevating.
Was there like a pivotal moment?
Do you recall like any like particular moment that you like, Holy shit, I do not want to be part of this anymore.
Yeah, you know, it was a lot of little things and there are a couple of big ones.
I mean the obvious ones were when I first joined Facebook actually in 2016, I was very lucky.
It was like, amazing job, great team, the company could do no wrong.
You know, stock price was through the roof.
And I was very fortunate to join a team that was quite early with regard to their engagement in media.
They had a relatively small team, but they hadn't really gone through the journey that we'd been through at YouTube to develop a really thoughtful, multi regional, multi language team that was really focused on different genres of content from sports, entertainment to music, but also creators and public figures and having ways in which you can bring them in and guide them and then guide the company as well on how to accommodate these relationships.
I think some of the crux started quite quickly actually after I joined in 2016, where it was the election and there were accusations of election meddling and different ways in which people were being guided through algorithms to content that would deepen their conviction and certain sort of ways of thinking that was polarizing.
And I remember they didn't really like many people speaking publicly because there were a lot of issues that they wanted to really control the message.
But because of my experience, oftentimes representing YouTube publicly internationally for many years, they're like, let's get him to go on stage and defend us against the editors of Norway who are accusing us of basically, you know, killing the news industry.
So I was able to do that quite adeptly because I was back on the news.
I was used to being in these public forum.
I could really help people understand that the world is shifting.
Whether you like it or not.
You can be part of us and join in a relationship.
But then some of the things that started coming down the pipe were a little harder to defend.
You know, the release of Facebook Live, for example, was done I think very quickly as a means to compete with YouTube.
YouTube had decided not to put out, allow anyone to go live anytime because they knew the kind of things that people might put down necessarily always.
And how do you actually stop people from doing things?
And there are a number of things that happened where, you know, live murders were strained or somebody going in and shooting people in Australia or you know, harm of children.
And so that was shut down.
It was one of those things that I knew in my heart, you know, you should not do this.
I've been through this at YouTube, we chose not to do that at Google.
But there was a sort of competitive edge where they really wanted to get it going.
And then there was Cambridge Analytica, which you know, really brought to the fore a lot more of this sort of you use of technology to guide people into different ways of thinking and other areas where I was going into meetings with major broadcasters and like we're going to pull our advertising because, you know, this data shows that young women are hurting themselves, you know, and getting depressed using Instagram.
And I didn't feel our answers were adequate.
I also have my own sort of personal journey.
I'm married to this amazing woman who's a naturopath and herbalist and she's a very non tech oriented person who started spending a lot more time in nature and I started thinking a lot more deeply about my contribution and am I aligned with my values and the work that I'm doing, as much as I love the team and the people.
And I made a big choice in 2019 actually to create my own business that's a conscious tech learning platform that focused on helping people get smarter.
But I didn't quite have it fully fleshed out.
I didn't have funding, but it was just this idea that came to me when we opened Scotland in a detox, digital detox.
And then whilst I was sort of contemplating and thinking, okay, I'm going to do this at some point I should really make this shift.
We went on a trip to Sri Lanka as a family.
We went to this place kind of in the, in the forest and jungle that was a ayurvedic retreat for 18 days.
And while were there, you know, we didn't use our phones.
It was really beautiful.
I was really thinking Korea, I should probably do this.
And then the Night before Easter in 2019, we're at a dinner in this restaurant in this village near the sea, and we're at our table.
We were already sort of past our desire to use our technologies because we'd been there for so long and had left our phones at home.
And were just enjoying each other's company.
My wife, my kids.
And across from us, there's a table with a dad and two teenage kids.
And they were all on their phones.
When they spoke to each other, they were arguing.
At one point, the girl shouted at her dad.
He said something to her about, you know, you're always on that thing.
And she got up and cried into the bathroom, came back.
Anyways, it was quite a disaster dinner.
And I felt sad for them, and I felt even part responsible.
But, you know, she's probably using Instagram, something that I'm pushing.
Next morning, there was an explosion.
There were 300 people killed in these sort of attack in different parts of Sri Lanka.
They targeted foreigners.
And I started getting all these phone calls like, are your kids okay?
We heard there are these teenagers from London that died.
It turned out it was those two kids who died in a bomb in their hotel, in the Shangri La Hotel.
We were far from there, but it really hit me hard.
Like, oh, my God, A.
It was just so close for comfort.
But more than that, I was thinking, you know, you never know when things are going to hit.
And if that.
That father who survived his last night with his kids was full of conflict, lack of attention to one another, and I'm just like, that was it.
I'm done.
And I went back.
Even though I didn't have another job lined up, I didn't have funding for my startup.
I'm just like, look, I think it's time for me to step away.
And.
And I was just.
It wasn't that again, you know, I love company.
I love the people.
I thought they were doing good things, but I just felt like, me personally, am I doing anything here that's really helping create solutions to some of the challenges I perceive?
Or am I just sort of, you know, taking the check and the options and sort of benefiting from something that I think isn't necessarily as wholesome as I originally thought it was?
Connecting the world, you know, all these great slogans are.
There's a limitation to that because there aren't many forces that push back.
So.
So I decided to go and start my own thing.
And that's where I conceived of Uptime, which is a micro learning app for really with the anti mindless scrolling up.
So in five minutes you can learn anything about anything.
You know, the best books, courses, podcasts, documentaries.
In five minutes designed like Instagram stories, so you feel like you're on a fun social platform, but you're learning something.
You know, for people who have knowledge foam over 50% of Americans who don't read one book per year, you know, within five minutes they can get the essence of, you know, any sort of book or podcast or story.
And that app is still going and it's doing really well.
And beyond that, when Covet hit, I decided to move to Portugal.
Another sort of lifestyle choice which I'd never made.
It was always going to a city because of my work.
Work was remote.
And my wife and I decided to join some friends who decided to relocate to Portugal to be near the sea, to be in nature, to work remotely and haven't been back since.
So I've decided since that, you know, two, three years ago that I would continue to support projects that I love, including my startup uptime and supporting that, but also work fractionally on projects and initiatives that I really feel very closely aligned with.
And I'm fortunate to be able to do that.
And for things that come up that I find to be really meaningful with people that I really enjoy.
Right.
I mean, there's so much to unpack.
What you've said here, like, I mean, you left when Instagram was kind of like the app of like the kids, which is no longer the case.
Like now it's more tick tock and those which are order of magnitude more toxic in terms of dopamine hits.
Right.
Like it's crazy.
I mean, as somebody who has young kids, like, I am, like I said before, hit the record button.
Like, I'm terrified of the future.
What, what looks right.
Look, right.
Because I mean, much to what to your point about what you're telling about this family sitting watching like their phones over dinner, like, we've all seen that.
Like you go to any restaurant today.
Yeah, it's more than.
Nor than not to be on their phones.
Right.
And yeah, it's, I mean, I've had dinner with friends who like.
And you like somebody you don't see very often.
Like, they're like.
And they're like on their phone, it's like, why are we even here?
Yeah.
Or if they've got kids, they're just like, oh, let's just keep them quiet, you know, let's just give them a phone, you know, and I'm guilty of that.
We do that from time to time.
But I think if that becomes your sort of stand in for paying attention because it's annoying to you or you don't have the patience or yourself are, you know, just want to have instant gratification and focus on something and not be annoyed or bothered.
It's become very common.
And you know, when we have people over, we go out with our friends for dinner and we, and if our kids are there, you know, we tell them, look, please don't let your kids watch the phone while we're at dinner together because we have a policy and that's often it creates even a little bit of conflict because.
I know, but I just want to spend time talking to you guys and if I don't, you know, and it's hard and, you know, the struggle is very real because this stuff is so pervasive.
And even in my home, like where we have pretty thoughtful, you know, conscious tech mindset, you know, my kid, I could just see them and their desire and sneaking around and trying to find access to screens is just so, that pull is so strong.
But it's, I mean, you see it from such an early age.
Right.
And there is a correlation with education, of course, but you see like, you see toddlers which are like, with phones like strapped to their, like, prams and like these kids, like, the world is amazing enough for them.
They don't need like a screen to flash in their face.
Right.
So it starts from such an early age.
Yeah.
But in, in your personal journey, like, in terms of moving away from that, what has been the biggest friction in your, I guess, you know, or contention in like both your social life and in terms of your, or family.
Like, what have you found working to kind of detox in terms of rituals and so forth?
Well, I think, you know, my move towards more conscious tech definitely coincided with my own personal journey, which you could say was one of just being more open to different modes of being challenging, you know, or sort of, you know, the mindset that we've been filled with that, you know, quite a capitalist, you know, mindset about growth and not focusing as much on health and our, you know, personal connection with nature.
And again, my wife was very instrumental in helping me recognize this because she was a mirror which is like, look, you know, you need to pay more attention to your family.
You need to spend more time.
And so, you know, we ended up getting this place in Scotland and, you know, there's no mobile reception up there.
None.
Right.
And so the first Day or two you're like, we didn't even have a satellite.
Now we have, you know, a satellite starting, you know, for, you know, so we can go work there.
But when you're there the first two days you feel this sense of like, you know, you just something's missing.
And then by after a day or two you just like you feel yourself relaxing to the space.
I started doing, learning, meditation as well.
And so part of it was a bit of a, I wouldn't say spiritual awakening, but it was just like a slow creeping recognition that all was not what were taught it should be in terms of what defines success.
And that is inconvenient in ways because it also means, you know, to be true to that.
You know, you're making sacrifices, you're stepping away from things that pay really well if you are making values based decisions.
There are certain people as well in the past I might have worked with because it was an interesting stepping stone.
But now I just won't, you know, if I don't feel there's that sort of value alignment and there's so many other things happening in the world right now where you know, you don't need to agree on everything.
But there are some basic fundamental human values that I think supersede breed.
And I want to be with people who can recognize the difference and can act with thoughtfulness and care while also, you know, being really good at what they do.
So it is limiting but at the same time it reveals all sorts of other interesting opportunities.
It makes you much more aligned and content with what you have and more gratitude for what we have.
And moving to Portugal is also part of that.
It didn't make so much sense economically, financially.
It would have been better for the career if you like to be in the thick of it in London world, everything's happening and still staying on that path or moving to headquarters in California.
And it took me a while to adjust to that.
But I feel very much at peace now in finding this balance between being present for my kids.
I have young kids again.
I have two older ones, you know, 26 and 25.
But I have, I was remarried, I have a 10 year old and an 8 year old and just being able to be much more focused on them, spending a lot more time in nature doing things.
I didn't do as much with my older kids even though I have an amazing relationship with them.
They also didn't expect as much because they weren't Covid kids that you know, were home all the time looking at you know, you know, they had.
And so being able to focus on relationship with them as well as their young men, you know, making time for adventures, making time for offline things, you know, just doing more hikes and spending time with their dog.
You know, these are things that in my early part of my career, I just didn't create time for.
I loved what I did.
Right.
Yeah.
So work didn't feel like work.
It just felt like what I am and what I do.
Yes.
Differentiate better now.
But that's, I mean that's something.
Because that hits home for me as well.
It's the whole like when you're at your.
You're not present, even if you're present.
Right.
When you're at home.
Right.
You.
Because you're.
And we've.
Because we've lived, particularly if you lived in the world of tech for so long, it's such a second nature to grab your phone to do things and almost like creating the boundaries and the barriers to do that.
And I've tried quite a few things over the years, like trying to create friction for myself essentially to not do that because it's so easy to just grab your phone, I'm just gonna check this.
And then you're down rabbit hole you go, right?
Yeah, exactly.
It happens to me all the time actually.
And sometimes I just allow myself that.
I think also news cycles with these things that we care about.
It's just constantly drawing you back in.
It does affect your mood, right?
It does affect.
Because you're switching between in some cases, absolute horrors on your phone.
And then, you know, the sweet kid who just wants to play Lego, you know, it does take time.
I mean, I shift.
I mean I've.
I've quit news.
Right.
For quite some time ago.
I quit news because like it added no utility to my life.
Life.
It's only like, only had like a negative impact to my life.
Right.
Yeah.
Because like if it, if I need to know, I will find out.
That's kind of my attitude towards it and like that.
Because there is, there's a.
In all sorts of journalism.
You coming from a background journalism, news today, it's just attention economy.
Right.
They just like clickbaity, like ev.
Like it's very different than news were 20 years ago.
Right.
Because it, and that's kind of why I try to distance myself from that, this, that entire echo chamber.
Right.
But like, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I know what you mean.
But it's also, it's interesting.
I'm.
I've really leaned into it a lot in the last two years just because there's, you know, I'm Palestinian, by the way.
I mean, it's.
Right.
And so, you know, staying abreast of things, hard to stay.
Hard to stay out of that.
Very hard to say.
You know, we're.
We have family there.
I have family as well, and lots of friends from Israel and other places.
And so there's been a constant dialogue.
And also one thing that has been super interesting is the difference between where mainstream media is willing to go and then the amount of information you get.
A lot of it not verified or great.
But so much that is really revealing a lot of things to the public that they just weren't told or informed about through traditional means.
So there's been a real revolution.
It's, it's.
It.
I, I always use the term.
I used to give this talk.
I still do from time to time.
But, you know, the.
The evolution of media.
But I have a little R in parentheses.
It's really a revolution that's an ongoing evolution.
So it always feels like revolution, but it's been happening for a long time.
And now you have all these people who have felt constricted in their ability to report things in a way they felt was more appropriate who are now finding huge audiences on places like Substack or in their Instagram or on their YouTube channels.
Now there's a plethora of them from across the spectrum.
And podcasting is another one.
Right.
This idea of anyone can reach millions of people, and I think it's given people a lot more.
If you're discerning, right?
If you're discerning, you can become.
Become much, much better informed as long as you're also looking at multiple sources and you're able to have some sort of discipline to verify stuff.
But it's the crooks.
This is the crooks to me, right?
Because like, I agree with what you say.
It's just the time it would take to me, for me to understand both sides of a story today is very time consuming.
Right?
Because you can't just like, assume truth is truth anymore.
And that's part of the reason why I just call quits on it because I don't have the bandwidth to figure out what I could trust.
I cannot trust anymore.
Yeah, it takes a lot of work.
It takes a lot of work.
And I spend quite a bit of time actually on this because I think we also have to, in many ways, decolonize our mind from even thinking that truth was always truth.
There was always this process of manufacturing consent.
I think there was more, you know, I would say there was more discipline in journalism, but at the same time there was a particular agenda that the powers that be were quite keen on us, you know, adhering to for all sorts of different reasons.
Now it's become very fragmented and in some ways it's liberating.
In other ways it's quite dangerous because there is so much division and it is hard to find that kernel of truth.
And I, as a former journalist, you know, I really think, I realize one of the things we're really missing in our education system is teaching people how to fact check and be discerning and think critically.
And there are some places that still do it, but it's very rare.
And oftentimes, even within schools, they don't want to get into what would be considered difficult conversations because there's too polarization.
Some of these feelings are going to be hurt, you know, so we are allowing that splintering of thought to occur.
But it's quite dangerous because I do believe at the core there is a way of looking at the world based on certain values that can be consistent if you can agree on what those fundamental values are.
And I think we've been losing some of that.
But it's critical, though, it's critical that we keep staying on it.
And I put as those values international humanitarian law, for example, or the principles of international law that were established after World War II to help things not happen again in such a horrible way.
But a lot of that stuff seems to get thrown out.
So I'm a real proponent of independent journalism.
People using platforms like YouTube, but it is really incumbent on the individual to make sense of it.
And it's interesting.
I speak to people about these different topics and it's like, you know, whatever you're consuming compared to what I'm consuming or the diversity of things I'm consuming is you were so sure about that point of view.
And I'm wondering, have you really questioned that?
Have you really questioned that echo chamber side is so terrifying because we used to have the town, the village idiot, right?
But now the village idiot got their own echo chambers, right?
Because no longer are they like alone right now they have like, well, other people think like me.
So therefore.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's a, it's an interesting space.
And then to make it even more fun and interesting, you layer on AI, Right?
So, yeah, not only is information or things that you see, maybe, you know, actual things that were filmed.
But you know, you'd have to check, you know, people would send me something.
Oh, what do you think about this?
I'm like, actually that video is from three years ago or it's from some other period of time that somebody's dressing up to be making point today.
That's nothing to do with what's happening today.
But at least I could find out that video is three years old now.
You know, with things like Sora and other news technologies for AI video creation from the spoken word indistinguishable visually from real life.
It's just like, oh my God, all bets are off.
Being able to fact check or find ways to verify or even worse, what I think we're going to see more and more of is somebody distribute something that just feels real and the way that it's presented looks and sounds real.
But by the time that thing spreads worldwide, causing whatever damage it can do before it's exposed that was a fraud, you know, diamond's already done damage already done.
And it's always been the case, you know, whether it be a newspaper, it's just the means and the speed of distribution and the impact was much smaller.
Slower.
Right.
Mark Twain used to say that, you know, the lie will travel around the world, you know, while truth is just getting his shoes on.
But, you know, multiply that by a bazillion and that's kind of the world we're heading into.
Yeah, no, it is difficult.
I want to go back a bit more to kind of digital minimalism and kind of back to that topic.
So I want to.
So obviously we are surrounded by tech and you obviously in this digital minimalism, like I guess honorable mentioned Cal Newport, who kind of, I don't know if he coined the phrase digital minimalism, but at least like popularized the term, right?
Yeah.
And I'm curious about how that looks for you.
What, how do you define this?
What does like digital declutter look like for you?
What have you actually gauged into, like, I know screen time, putting things away.
But have you taken more radical measures in terms of device you use, how you structure your days and so forth?
Yeah, I mean, I've tried different things and I spent like a good year going deep and actually working and getting some certifications in digital well being, which I felt was really interesting.
A lot of it is common sense, but I think it's nice that we have these sorts of structures or guidance, particularly for people that are early on in the process, you Know things like just not having your phone visible if you're doing something else, that's a very basic one, but just it's present next to it.
Put it in door is already taking your attention and drawing you toward it.
You know, trying to avoid having the phone in bed.
I think for couples and for people with families.
I found that one really hard still today because, you know, charge it there or whatever, you're checking in emails late at night, but you end up scrolling and doing other things that weren't your intention.
But I think those can be very powerful.
You know, ultimately I think it's just you can learn these different tips and tricks.
You can make your screen black and white.
You know, you can move the apps that are the most attractive, you know, into a folder so they're not so visible.
I think these things can be very helpful and there's a whole list of them.
But ultimately it's like food.
You have to build that sort of internal resilience to make it more intrinsic.
And I think that's ultimately the goal is to maybe use some of these crutches or different tricks and tips to help you there.
But ultimately you're exposed all the time.
And so I found some of the best things to be more internal work, like meditation, like just being more, having more equanimity, being less reactive.
And this is helpful for your relationships.
It's helpful for dealing with children or difficult situations at work and dealing with risks of any types of addiction, including digital addiction.
Your media relationship is almost exactly similar to your relationship with food is, you know, you are what you eat, you are what you consume and so trying to also, you know, if you are engaging, this is the way I am with my kids, my younger ones, then putting in front of them and creating barriers to things, putting in front of them things that are wholesome, healthy, educational and interesting and fun and vetting that and using certain guidelines and then putting barriers up because they're going to wander off into the darker places.
You have to kind of, you know, you have to stay informed enough as a parent to make sure you're in control of the passwords, you're in control of the gateways.
Because I know some adults, some parents who just are so tuned off to technology, they're 8 and 10 year olds are setting passwords and running all the tools in the home.
And those kids are getting access to stuff very young that they shouldn't be getting access to.
So I think it's incumbent upon people to stay vigilant, understand, spend Time, invest in this thing, learn how to sort of have these sort of defenses technically, but then do that inner work.
So you have those defendants, defenses more intrinsically in your ability to resist.
I think some of these sort of shiny objects that are constantly attracting you.
And I fail it all the time, by the way.
It's not easy.
But the more I.
It's just kind of like when you're tired, when you're traveling, you know, you tend to consume more, you tend to be less rigid, just like you eat more fast food, just like you're getting access to things that are less healthy, but it's just there and I'm hungry or I'm tired and get more coffee.
It's, you know, it really is the same and it's also the same in that the system is designed to entrap you with how they're designed and how they look and how they make noise.
You know, so being mindful and understanding that also is a good defense.
And so I spent time speaking in different schools here in Portugal, international schools and other places, speaking to people like this.
It's really just about being aware of what's happening so that you are capable of recognizing it.
Well, that's a starting point.
Right.
So like I'm from a tech background, right.
I, I'm, I jokingly say that when my kids get a bit older, like my home network would be worse than like North Korea.
Right.
That's like, that's my goal, right.
Essentially to lock that down.
Because I, I don't trust the Internet at large and neither should any adult really.
Right.
But that's a lot easier said than done.
Like I'm very technical and I'm still pondering on how best to do this.
Right.
I'm curious about where your head is at because like parental control, like Both Android and iOS, they're garbage, right.
Kids can get around that.
There are bazillion YouTube tutorials for how kids break these systems.
Right?
Yeah, talk to me about that.
Like when you speak to schools particular, like how you advise parents because ultimately the onus on the parent, not the.
Children, it is for me it's a.
About parents being self reflective on their own use in front of their kids.
Yes.
Monkey do, monkey see, monkey do.
Exactly.
So, you know, and we see this and again I've been guilty of this is like, you know, don't use a screen and then you're on your phone.
So like you're like, doesn't make sense.
Secondly, Screens used only in places where you can see them.
This is the most fundamental.
You're watching YouTube.
Great.
Some great stuff on YouTube.
But there's also some things on YouTube that are not great for you.
Even if they have frontal controls engaged, getting it's not really going to impact things that might be horrific or scary or people fighting or whatever these things are that people can get drawn down the rabbit hole into.
So it's really about the TV is watch with the door open.
The kids use the ice bat in the living room.
Very rare cases where they would be alone with a screen in their bedroom.
And my kids are 8 and 10 and we can impose that they also, I would say until 13 or 14 minimum they don't get their own device.
Yes, right.
So these are the things where once they have it and you allow them private time with it, then you could rely on things like creating different technological barriers.
But they're going to figure that out.
They're going to be drawn into some of these spaces or even people be observing them or the different data collection stuff you don't want them to be posting and making themselves too visible.
For me it's really just about access is for limited periods of time.
It's done in a place where you can see them.
They don't have their own device.
And that is the best process.
The other thing I tend to rely on my kids, I always get pissed off at me for this is I do rely on ratings, you know, that are, you know, I use a website called Common Sense Media and I encourage all parents to use this.
Common Sense Media is going to give you know, if it's a book, a video game or a film or a TV show, you know, what do they rate that?
What age do they think this is appropriate for?
It will be some difference of opinion.
At least you can make a conscious Choice to say 20% of parents think that Ferris Wheeler's day off or whatever that film is, it's probably okay if you watch it with them.
Right.
But none of them are going to say, you know, Alien 2 is right if they're 10.
Right.
And so I tend to use these guidelines.
If they go to their friend's house, you know, they're gonna watch some horror movie because the older sister, you know that, so be it in my house.
These are rules and they tend to self regulate once that happens to some extent.
Right.
And I think it really is about that that sort of limiting access or making sure it's monitored access at that age below 13, 14.
Yeah.
But I think it gets a lot more difficult once the kid hit teenage years.
Well, that's the age period that I'm terrified of in particular.
I mean you've seen studies like the PISA studies like how like in the last report we've seen the biggest drop like ever recorded I think in math and reading ever recorded in like in the studies.
Right.
And it's largely attributed to social media.
Right.
That people are not spending time, they're not getting proper sleep because they're up all night.
Doom scrolling.
Yeah, that's the phone out of the bedroom at any age by the way.
Until you, until you're living on your own.
It's like you don't have the phone, you don't get your own phone ticket.
13, 14.
But you know, you shouldn't have that thing in your bedroom.
Now that's going to get hard for you to do homework and things as you get older.
But I think, you know, you have to play, you have to.
This is why you need to start young with helping kids self regulate.
Yes.
Because once they get to be teenagers they're going to be riding off of what they've learned until that point, trying to teach them from that point.
Good luck.
Right.
You haven't taken the time until then to invest in that relationship to give them a sense of self worth, to give them a sense of confidence, to help them understand how to navigate and make responsible decisions.
And if they fuck up, that's fine.
They're also recognizing that but it doesn't become the default.
I think that's one of the things that I think people are looking for quick hits.
It's kind of like, you know, the parent is working a little bit less and they're 56, they want to spend more time at their teenager but they've spent all their time working and they never really built that close relationship and the teenager rejects them.
You're like, why would I want to hang out with you?
You just, you didn't really commit when I was younger and now you have time, you want to hang out.
It's like you never, you didn't spend the time building that relationship.
So start to build that relationship and understanding it's not a confrontational relationship ideally, but it'll be confrontational from time to time.
But for them to know that you are looking after the best interest and it's going to be a very comfortable sometime.
But let's find other interesting ways to spend time together.
Yeah, I mean the other element that's obviously Much more difficult is, I mean, kind of peer pressure as you get into that school, like, particularly in school and oh, all my friends are on TikTok and whatnot.
Like I've literally heard from other parents are like, oh, they can only get in touch with their kids through TikTok.
And it's just like, that's a terrifying universe.
I know, I know.
I mean you can be a little more hardcore and like get them a phone that doesn't have, you know, streaming and other people that do this.
But again, I think you also don't want them to be a total L and be totally out of the scene necessarily.
I don't know, like the L option sounds pretty good to me at the point.
Yeah, I mean it can be great and, but again, but that should be one where the kid I, you know, when I speak in, like there's a high school here, they're not allowed to use their phone at all from bell to bell and so it's in their locker or whatever.
And that's good.
Some people do, but I think that's a good policy because you don't want people, you know, in the corners, you know, in the playground, you know, looking at stuff or doing things that are influencing those that have better digital hygiene.
Right.
That's the concern is other parents that have less guidelines have kids that are influencing your kids.
But, but I've actually been surprised at the number of kids who are self regulating because they're just like, you know what, I realize it's a distraction.
I realize it's not good for me, but that's because, you know, they've had some good upbringing and education and parents are taking the time or their, whoever's looking after them.
It like instilled upon them a sense of self regulation, responsibility.
Again, it's the same thing like, you know, food or drugs or alcohol, you know, they're going to go there from time to time.
But are they, have they been instilled with enough sort of love and self confidence and understanding of the implications to self regulate?
I think again that's critical.
Now you can be draconian at that age if you haven't instilled those values.
And as teachers, I think that's hard for them to have to do that sometimes because they're dealing with people at home, they just don't spend as much time on it.
But, but ultimately once they're 18 again, 17, 18, once they're out of the house, go off to university if you haven't instilled those values by then, you know it's going to be even harder for them.
Right.
Same thing with understanding the value of healthy food and not too much excess in anything that they do.
Absolutely.
I want to talk a bit about something that I think is relevant to digital minimalism, which is being able to cope with boredom.
And I think to me this is something that is at the heart of this because when do we pull out our phones is the second we feel the slightest hint of boredom.
You queue up and queue up, somewhere out your phone goes.
Yeah, exactly.
How have you cope with that?
Because like breaking that cycle is very difficult.
Yeah, I think this, it's hard.
It's also something that I will always find a reason or excuse to be there if it's on my own.
I'm listening to a podcast, you know, and I look at my phone to change the podcast and I see a WhatsApp message and I do that and I check Instagram and I'll find myself doing that.
But I think again, it's.
It's about having, being able to be comfortable on your own, being able to still feel a connection with the physical world, having other things that draw your attention, that give you some respite.
Going to the gym, swimming, take your dog for a walk, going to the beach.
Again, things like, you know, meditation practice is super helpful to be comfortable with silence and to be comfortable with, you know, non being in a space that you're not surrounded by things that are drawing your attention or training yourself to be more resilient with that.
I think that's.
It's super important again to be able to create habits earlier on or at least try to force yourself to if they're not natural, that over time you will feel are so rewarding.
I kick myself sometimes because I enjoy reading so much.
I enjoy having a book with me and I enjoy reading that book.
But if my phone is around, I will be less likely to read.
And so I tend to make a point of, you know, keeping lots of books around me, taking always books with me when I travel and carving out time to read, you know, fifty hundred pages a day.
Because if I don't create that sort of structure, and were talking a little bit about structure, there's different sort of things that you can do.
It's so easy to fall out of that.
And the same thing with my kids, by the way, My son's.
My son, my 10 year old now, he loves reading.
But you know, it was a real My daughter as well, but she loves more listening to stories and being involved.
But it's a non digital form of entertainment and that can be fulfilled with audiobooks, that can be fulfilled with, you know, just sitting and telling stories.
But one of the things I did with my younger kids was if they wanted to have that 30 minutes of screen time, there's 30 minutes of reading before and they're like so excited to do that.
Reading carrots.
Yeah.
But at the beginning they felt it was like a chore.
But with my 10 year old, it's just like he's got so into reading.
He's just like, I just read for an hour and I forgot because I love, you know, Harry Potter, whatever.
So there are techniques now every kid is different and I respond to that differently.
But I think there are techniques where you can leave access to screens as a reward that's tied to certain activities that are more to do with being outside, spending time helping out around the house, you know, doing things that are decidedly non digital so that they get to appreciate it and doing it with them.
And again, being an example with them.
You know, they know we value reading in this house, that there are books and their things that they like and they like to see.
And when they see me reading, they want to do more reading.
When they see me playing tennis, they want to do tennis.
Right.
So that is, I think another key aspect is.
And, and then we're talking a lot about parent child relationships.
I think the other thing is this applies to adults with their peer group.
Yes, it's the same thing.
Again, I make this health relationship.
You know, you are in many ways a reflection of your, you know, five closest friends or people that you spend time with.
If they are eating unhealthy food, if they're drinking a lot or whatever these third behaviors are.
You are much more likely to do that regardless of your intention because your environment will definitely trump your willpower.
But if you also start to shift as you shift in your appreciation and different ways of looking at the world, to have peer groups or people around you that have similar ways of looking at the world that are also creating some of these sort of, you know, barriers to tack or quiet moments or the, you know, spending more time doing things in the outdoors, then you will naturally do less of that thing that you were doing with the other group that is just so committed to whatever that I would say less conscious behavior is.
Yeah.
Have you tried to take any like, more radical approaches?
I've, I've experiment explored myself.
I got myself one of those old Nokia phones as my.
I tried when I was living in London for a while to do my weekends with only a dumb phone.
And I got a SIM card like so that people if I'm in an emergency, I can make a phone call.
But like it was just like this is my lifeline, more so than something that I need.
But.
And there are other more modern versions like you've seen the light phone, perhaps other phones like that.
Right.
But what I found was that it's very difficult to navigate the modern landscape without a smartphone.
Like just something simple like you just get an Uber.
You can't do that.
Or I mean, sure, depending on where you are, like public transport might be an option.
Great, but not everywhere.
Well, you realize this when your battery dies in your phone, how screwed you are.
Yes, your digital wallet.
I was in Barcelona at this off site and I wanted to just get a bike, you know, to get home.
It's like if you 15 minute ride or call an Uber.
But without my phone I could do neither.
I couldn't do much.
I ended up walking about 45 minutes, which is quite nice.
But even then I didn't know where to go because I didn't know my Google map that I was so used to.
So we've been conditioned to even turn off parts of our brain like navigation ethics.
We're so used to using Google Maps.
When I'm driving now around where I live, I'm trying to not use my Google Map to kind of retrain my brain to remember how to drive in places that I should be more familiar with.
When I was a kid, I could drive in America, you drive at 16, you use the map once or twice, but then you just figure it out.
Now it becomes hard.
So creating those moments of disconnection, it has to be really intentionally choosing not to.
But you're right.
I mean the other challenge I have is I work in media.
I work.
I didn't say, you know, one of the things I'm doing now is I'm supporting this amazing company called Electrify that is investing in thoughtful knowledge, content.
YouTube creators that are and other creators on different platforms like Substack and other digital platforms, they're creating content that's designed to like inform and inspire you.
So science learning, coding, education, you know, we own some of the.
And invest in some of the biggest channels on YouTube and astronomy and things like that.
So we are always sending each other video clips or we're checking this out or we're using Slack.
And so for the work that I do it would be impossible to be without a smart device.
It gives me full access for streaming for communication.
So in a way I've sort of created an environment where I mean I could have been do pottery or something where you just don't have to use your phone.
But I do stay connected.
And this is also why I, I talk a lot about working on modes of self discipline within the swirl because I'm in that swirl no matter what.
It's a large part of what I do.
And so I can't just turn it off.
Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I mean I'm a big believer in that.
We are the sum of our habits.
Yes.
Right.
And, and this is very much it.
Like creating those frictions that breaks the habit right there.
I think we're seeing a big movement right now and like kind of goes with biohacking and all these things like people like changing like you've seen similar things in.
In men health as well.
Like people quitting alcohol.
Like I, I've quit alcohol myself.
Like it's these, these things are like you start to see a bigger awareness around a bigger around habits that we know are bad that we've still kept doing without.
Socially conditioned largely, right?
Yeah.
A lot of it.
Socially conditioned or just.
It's something you just used to.
Because it's just the thing you do when you go out again.
A lot of that's about shifting your social groups.
We were running these events in Lisbon called Sweet like Sweet Life Sunday and my wife there was like a whole day of programming.
No alcohol.
It's like from 10 or 11 until 3, 4 in the afternoon.
We you know start with ice bath is open guided people on breath work.
Many people doing an ice bath for the very first time and consciously doing something hard.
Yeah.
Even though your everything your body is telling you no is in itself a form of building discipline and building confidence that you can do hard things.
Since that was where we'd start then we would have an amazing healthy lunch with a chef that would talk about it.
Everything was designed for.
For your goodness really natural ingredients.
So that was really nice for people to.
And also food that kids would love.
So we had this huge spread and people would see their kids eating stuff that you know, they don't normally feed them at home.
Like this is great or you know the food is super healthy.
Then we would have a talk on some theme around healthy longevity.
Oftentimes more blue zone oriented things that are ways in which people live long, healthy lives in countries and places in the world that don't have access to the technologies and the needles and the, you know, the different sort of, you know, longevity technology techniques that, or medication techniques that we have.
And then we would do an hour of body movement with some sort of great practitioner and then we'd end the day with a non alcoholic tasting of like, you know, herbal tonics or different sort of kombuchas and stuff.
And it's really fun.
It was sort of a moment in the week or in the month how often we did it where you would be introduced if you weren't very familiar with some of these different modes.
But you'd also be meeting all these people who had a similar interest and so creating a sense of community and you know, finding those places where you're surrounded by people who are shifting in that same direction as you I think is important.
Like if you're not drinking, you're probably spending less time with the people that are drinking hardcore.
Yeah, I would imagine.
Right.
So as my wife is a naturopath and as a practitioner, you know, she always says that, you know, as I said earlier, like environment trumps willpower.
So changing that environment will in itself naturally create greater conditions for you to be successful in those things that you.
Want to change by yourself and changing your identity.
I am a big proponent of like, if you identify as something, your decisions will follow.
So if you identify as a healthy person, you will make healthy decisions.
Whereas.
So like that, like internalizing that I think is a good driver for this as well.
But let's talk about longevity because obviously that's something that's close to your heart as well.
I think it goes hand in hand with, with mental health, of course as well.
Yeah, yeah.
For me, I'm not a big fan of longevity and like biohack hacking and all these things, but for me it's.
I am older than I look and I have young kids and it's mostly about.
I'm 40, 42.
Oh really?
Yeah, you were late for it.
Yeah, exactly.
But I'm a little older than I look, which means that for me longevity comes down to mostly about not living until I'm 150 because I have no intention of.
It's about living until I'm maybe 90, but living a good life until I'm dead.
Right.
For me that's all it's all that it's all about.
Right, right.
Like being healthy to the end and then just done rather than 10 years of like agony.
Right, Yeah.
I mean, I think we're.
I say we are.
I'm a little older than you, but the generation where growing old wasn't that attractive.
Right.
You know, we would see people in their 70s, 80s, and they wouldn't be as active or they would be very dependent on other people.
And that wasn't something that I think people were thinking.
A lot of people also of our age are caring for older parents.
But I think there's so much more information now and there's so many ways in which we can live longer, healthier, happier lives that don't require spending 20 grand a year on some sort of great longevity technology program or getting expensive scans every year.
You know, just doing civil blood works and understanding some of the patterns I think is going to go a long way.
But ultimately, what we look at in this sort of, you know, this longevity house project that we're working on here in Portugal is what I call these blue zone approaches to longevity, which, and the term blue zone, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but there was a journalist with, I think National Geographic who traveled the world and found these places where people tended to live the longest and he circled them blue on a map and they became the blue zones.
And what they have in common are things like community, having a sense of purpose.
People live together, everyone has a role.
The grandparents are in constant contact with grandkids and other younger people in the community and they feel valued.
Everyone has a sense of purpose.
This Ikigai, they call it Japan.
They are constantly on the move.
Many of these places are on hills or on mountains or in environments that are a little more rugged.
And so movement is daily life.
They're not going and doing all the steps and looking at their itron and they're just naturally moving.
So they are robust humans that have mobility until old age.
They are eating food from the land, they're eating seasonally, they're eating things that are not full of pesticides.
Their access to things that are harmful to them is limited.
And they also share that food in family and in community.
On top of that, one of the things that there's a Harvard, like a 70 something year Harvard study on health and well being.
And the number one indicator of a long and healthy life is relationships.
Relationships.
Relationships.
Relationships is actually the quote.
And then on top of that you have things like stress management.
If you're living in these more natural environments, you're not subject to the stresses of city life, the stresses of the type of work Environments as well, even though they might be doing harder labor in many cases, you know, the stress levels, stress management is really important.
But yeah, and then now I would say on top of that adding in things like monitoring, we have the ability to monitor our health better than ever before.
We can do a DNA test, we can identify things that might be in our family lines that we need to be mindful of and make life adjustments earlier on.
So there's no reason why, you know, we shouldn't be able to live to a healthy, happy, you know, 90 something or even over 100.
You know, obviously you've got the, what they call like the meteors, the things that are going to come out of, you know, the cancers and so forth.
But even that you can mitigate the risk of that through lifestyle.
So I do think it's a myth and I've looked so much at this because when I go into something with my journalist brand, I go super deep.
That's why I do this longevity with Brian Johnson stuff.
You know, there's no way we're going to know if that stuff successful for another 20, 40, 50.
He's been criticized a lot for like 60 years.
Not being very empirical as well.
Right.
Not just that, but it's just like, I don't know, it's sort of counter to this, you know, relationships and we use the term a life well lived.
You know, I want to live longer, but I want to live healthy.
And I want to live as healthy as I can for as long as I can because I want to be there to benefit from and be part of and be a guide for my kids and be part of the relationships that I value.
But there's a point at which I think in this longevity boom where it's really about ego.
It's about.
Yeah.
And also like, honestly, if, like if I had a choice between living to 110 and eat Brian Johnson's diet or limited to 90 eating my diet, I'd rather live to 90.
I have friends who are living by his diet and I would not want to do that.
Yeah, I don't think that's joyful.
I mean, look, I think if people want to try it, that's great.
I think you doing a service by showing us interesting things.
But ultimately it comes down to, you know, life is about balance.
Yes.
Not too excessive in a particular direction.
Having this sense of equanimity and joyfulness and not being so rigid that you're pushing things or people away that might contribute to your Emotional well being.
Right.
Yeah.
and so I.
We joke about this with, you know, friends.
You know, we'll go out, maybe we'll have a few drinks and we'll have a great.
We'll stay for it later, you know, at a party or whatever.
And it's like I'm referencing my social relationships, which are so fulfilling to me, which make me feel younger and make me actually younger over sticking to my whoop, schedule of eight, you know, hours per night.
Because this moment with my friends is so important to me.
So it's again about finding that balance within yourself.
But like pragmatism.
But it's kind of like we talked about with the digital stuff.
There are all sorts of things you can do.
Like, I don't have any alcohol, for example.
Like, I don't want to drink, so I have no alcohol in my house.
But isn't it better to get to a place where you can still maintain a healthy relationship?
Yes.
Your physical health, even if these things are around you, that I think is more of an aspiration.
Just like in the digital world.
I don't need to create all these sort of barriers or things that are quite unnatural because I can't control my urges.
I want to get to a place where I have evolved to the place where I can find peace despite the distraction that I think at least.
Yeah.
At least for me, you kind of have to go extreme to start.
Yeah.
And then you can, like, so I. I cut out alcohol this year.
Right.
And yeah, I went cold turkey, but now I'm like, I can have a drink like one, but like, I can easily, like.
But now I feel like I've done it long enough that I can control it.
And it's the same thing with all habits like exercise or anything.
Like, you need to go extreme, then you can deal it back.
Yeah, I think so.
And.
And people have different constitutions, you know, like for some people, they can naturally have a casual one or two drinks or even a cigarette when they're in the social situation and that they don't touch it for months until another wedding or whatever.
But other people like me, if, like, if I have one, you know, I'm more likely to have five.
Right.
And the next day I'm going to be thinking about it.
Right.
So, you know, we are built differently.
Yes.
And so that also something to be mindful of, finding that thing that works best for you, but ultimately trying to get to that place that.
And it's something I aspire to, but it's hard and I'm working on it all the time, but I have a long way to go.
Is this trying to be in a space where regardless of what's occurring around you have agency, you can make conscious, thoughtful choices and then if you can continue to focus on that applies to better health, better relationships, better relationship work and better relationship with technology because you're not, you're conscious and aware of these things, but you're choosing consciously to respond in a way that's best for you, for you and the people around you.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, I, I kind of want to wrap this up with kind of like how you see the next 5, 10 years where given your vantage point, you've seen, you have a lot of data points on where we came from, where we are both in terms of longevity and in terms of mental health, digital wellness, digital minimalism.
Are we seeing a tipping point or are we going down doom?
Both.
Yeah.
I mean, I believe that whilst there is this sort of technological overreach and there are things that we all, you know, should be concerned about, you know, AI is a whole other area we don't really get into too much.
But I'm definitely concerned about how this is going to become so pervasive and not just in a positive way that it means we even need to be more mindful and self aware, focus on another, connect with nature, connect with things that are tangible as a counterbalance.
Some more and more people are moving away from that world.
More people are sort of, I would say, waking up, becoming more conscious and you know, Portugal's a great example, people are leaving their jobs and whatever, finance, whatever, and they're moving and they're buying an orange farm, you know, and that's pretty extreme way to go.
But there's more and more of that happening.
But I think to the extent that you want to stay, you know, connected into the active world that where you know, you have your economic relationships and so forth, consciously spending more time away from technology, spending more time in nature, spending more time in community is going to be probably the most important thing that we can do to maintain a sense of balance and humanity in the world that's going headlong into increasingly addictive technology.
And that has the added health benefits that we talked about.
Nature is a healer, nature is something that is a teacher.
And we should be looking to spend more time in spaces and protecting those spaces because they're going to be a bit of a really critical for us to maintain our grip on our own humanity.
And our relationship with the things around us, this is happening.
And I say both because there are more and more people that are naturally moving in that direction, But I would say a lot of the masses are moving in the very opposite direction, where there's.
Even though they kind of know they're just being drawn in because it's just so convenient and it's so interesting.
Just one more episode and just this and that, and the food is so tasty and, you know, so you.
While America is a great example, it's the center of some of the healthiest people in the world and the most advanced workout programs.
You also have the greatest amount of obesity and the declining lifespan because it's at the extremes.
So I see more of this.
I see more communities that are breaking out and people that are looking to go a little bit more to land and still staying connected and using technologies to work more remotely, but not these sort of caught up in the.
In the swirl of that sort of hardcore capitalistic structure.
But I see more and more people actually continuing to go down that rabbit hole, becoming less healthy, becoming more addicted to technologies and other things and losing that sense of agency.
And I.
So I see both.
I see both occurring.
I try and keep a foot in both worlds a little bit.
I think it's important to do that.
I think it's a healthy thing to do.
But there are parts of me that start to think, you know, the best thing we may need to do in the next 10, 15 years is actually learn how to work land and learn how to grow things and learn how to.
Oh, I mean, we've.
We've.
We've jokingly had this conversation at home multiple times.
Like, we just gotta buy, like, an island somewhere and just like, just isolate away from the world.
Because I do not like the direction that things are going.
Right.
Yeah, I know the funny story.
We ended up getting this place in Scotland, which is a beautiful thing in nature.
We had to put a lot of work into it and love into it.
But when Covid hit, we're like, perfect, let's go there.
But then, of course, you're not allowed to travel.
None of the locals wanted anybody from the south to go up to Scotland because they said, nobody from the south.
And so we couldn't even go there.
We didn't have any Internet connection there.
So that thing that was the benefit now became the reason why we couldn't go there.
We couldn't work from there.
And so that one thing that we created as this sort of getaway became important, possible a To get to and B.
To work from and.
Right.
That's why.
And I think a lot about that.
It's like, okay, so you know, accessibility and actually being very smart about leveraging tech so that you can still stay connected, you can still stay engaged.
If we go into another crisis of some sort, you know, you still need to find a way to be able to communicate.
So we need to embrace those aspects of technology that empower us, that are really great tools for our learning, for our connection and for economic well being as well.
But at the same time not lose sight of those things that make us really human, make us really real.
So we really need to get like countryside with a dial up connection so you can only get this pure essentials.
Yeah.
And some sort of a crank generator.
I don't know.
Right.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I'm not a prepper, but I think there's some times where, I think where it's coming in the next five to 10 years, people I know that closest to, you know, in Silicon Valley.
But of course looking at me, oh.
Have I got New Zealand properties, right?
No, they're just like, bro, it's like some things are going to change at a pace that you just are not even going to realize how fast things are changing.
But I am also, you know, I'm quite optimistic that with human ingenuity we're going to be able to really thrive and keep growing.
But I think there will be the sort of bifurcation and we have to protect ourselves first by just understanding how the system works, understanding how we are being manipulated in media with technology, with a digital addiction, with food and all these things and make conscious choices for our own health and mental well being, which takes a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
It's a worthy journey.
It won't happen automatically.
Like you need to pursue this, Right?
Yeah, exactly.
So it's.
But it does require sacrifice.
You have to give up a lot of conveniences.
Yes.
You have to redefine what success looks like.
You have to redefine what value looks like.
And even relationships that are healthy and not healthy for you.
And so that is a constant process of evolution.
But that's what we're here for, you know.
Yeah, that's what we're here for.
Patrick, this has been a great pleasure.
I'm sure we could spend another hour or two just talking about this, but I think we need to cut it there.
Maybe that's going to be a part two episode at some point in the future.
Thanks, Matt.
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Have a good one.
All right.
Cheers.
Bye.
Found an error or typo? File PR against this file or the transcript.